When all you want to do is Dance with Sonali Mishra

Malini Sarma 0:01

Hey, Sonali, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I'm really excited to have you on the show.

Sonali Mishra 0:09

Hi, Malini from India. I'm really excited to be here too. It's nice to connect. Yeah, this is a podcast so,

Unknown Speaker 0:19

so Well, welcome.

Unknown Speaker 0:22

I think this is

Malini Sarma 0:25

I think this is the first time I'm having somebody from India actually on my podcast, so it's a first for me as well.

Unknown Speaker 0:34

So we won't have any connection issues during the car.

Malini Sarma 0:38

Well, yeah, we'll keep our fingers crossed. So, um, your journey is very interesting, because most people will try and come You know, they usually the born brought up in the US and they tend to live and work here and you know, they kind of find Their path over here. But in your case, you have a very interesting journey because you were born and brought up in the US. And you actually went back to India. So can you just talk a little bit about your experience growing up here in the US and how you saw yourself and what was that like?

Sonali Mishra 1:21

Um, you know, my my story, I guess, in terms of my childhood was pretty standard. As far as the Indian American experience, at least that generation is concerned. My parents moved to to Michigan, from Odessa in the late 1960s. My dad actually came to study engineering.

Unknown Speaker 1:43

And he ended up staying, got married and they ended up settling.

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And

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for me, it's interesting because my childhood

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just seemed

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to be normal. You know, unless I said, we have Indian food in America. Amar Chitra katha, Ramayana, puja, I mean, who are all of these things? We're just defining normal, I didn't really know how people live. And so that was sort of early childhood experience. And then, you know, we were living in Plymouth at the time. Not a lot of Indian immigrants there. And there was a lot of racism when I was when I was a school kid. And it's interesting looking back, because, you know, they sort of lumped you in this sort of geographic, right, and when it wasn't really good, not that racism is over politically. They didn't know where I was from. It was I was just Brown, right. So that was sort of lumped into this full, you know, category. And, and it was intense, you know, because nothing, nothing really prepares you for that. And I wasn't very open about it to be something I never did.

Unknown Speaker 2:58

I just really internalize it.

Unknown Speaker 3:01

He was just, I just remember years of going to waking up in the morning and just being filled with anxiety for what could happen or what may happen. And I remember it. And certainly there were certain times of the day that you know, it's with a certain individuals that are in one period. So you'll just sort of hold your breath, hoping that you don't draw attention to yourself. And I think I learned to basically do that visible, you know, and it wasn't until recently that I made this connection. I mean, the whole irony of this is that I'd spent so many years trying to be invisible, and then I ended up being a performer. Right. And, and it was interesting because I made that connection, because when I first when I first started performing, I was really struggling with with stage fright. I used to paralyze and stage right. And I realized now that it was really sort of a struggle of going from being invisible and spending so much time visible

Unknown Speaker 4:01

to all of a sudden

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having the ability. So, you know, It's bittersweet when I look at that, but I have really good memories of dance, you know, because I think at that point dance was really my refuge at the time. It gave me a sense of self. And it gave me a sense of confidence that I didn't have I mean, it was really my anchor during that that time, and, and also writing, reading, you know, reading about other minorities and just that experience, because it's just something that I could relate to. And so, and so it's bittersweet, right? Yeah. They're definitely great moments with dance great moments with my family, family friends as well. So yeah, it was but when you think myself, I don't think I saw myself. You know, I really don't I think I'd spent so long not see myself that I think it was pretty much invisible until until probably my team

Malini Sarma 5:00

Did you have kind of like a, you know, like, a lot of immigrant kids have, like, kids who are immigrant parents tend to have like a, you know, a persona that they have outside versus persona that they have inside, you know, like the Indian side, and then they have the, the American side, did you have that or you just kind of, you know, kept to yourself and kind of, you know, adjusted and just made sure that you blended with everybody. And so you didn't get either picked on or didn't called out or, you know, stood out or anything.

Unknown Speaker 5:32

I think that was sort of on I to a degree, I think it was the devil person. Right. And it'll be very interesting, because that's something that I've done throughout my life. I know there's the work thing, and then there's the demo. And so you sort of know how to want to say chameleon, but you just sort of adapt to whichever situation. And so I think

Unknown Speaker 5:52

what, it's cool.

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It was sort of i was i was much more to myself and had a little And then with my parents family, it was a different, you know, it was a different experience, it was people that were like, people that relate with more of a chance of expressing my personality in that situation. School was really where I tended to

Unknown Speaker 6:14

sort of limit my age, etc.

Malini Sarma 6:20

Okay, so, um, you, you pretty much used dance, I mean, for you dance was what, you know, a way to kind of free yourself where you could express yourself without having to be worried about what anybody would say it was kind of kind of your domain, right where you felt very, very comfortable. So, do you want to talk a little bit about how you got introduced to Odissi?

Unknown Speaker 6:50

Oh, I dance before I

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started in Bharatanatyam,

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and my parents wanted me to do Odissi for a long time,

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but there were no good Odissiteachers.

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And so I started with Bharatnatyam and I really enjoyed it.

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And when I was old enough to manage my early teens, I would go to Canada and I was studying, studying with Chitralekha, Ellora and Devraj Patnaik.

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And we went to an Odiya family living in Canada.

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Basically, it was interesting because mother, daughter and son,

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son is also a wonderful musician.

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And so, it was that experience of learning with that family as well, because I felt like they could balance those identities.

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And we were just comfortable

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with their Odiyaness and then as they were with their Canadians, and they were so good. connected to audiences as well. And that was something that I found really appealing because up until then, I don't think I had such a close connection with my roots. I didn't speak Odiya. I understood it, but I wasn't so connected on that level. And when I started already see it was just in its initial connection with it

Unknown Speaker 8:24

probably been the Odiya family or

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something, there's something inside that will kind of add it was really like love it for a site there was no looking back. No rationale. It was just, I was just so hungry to learn and

Unknown Speaker 8:39

practice and just

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do just get as much of it as I can. And, and at that time, also know when you're just dealing with all that stuff at school, Odissi was that was the thing that gave me a sense of identity. It gives me a lot of focus. It gave me some purpose. It was a good way to

Unknown Speaker 9:03

So it was on many levels. It was really wonderful.

Malini Sarma 9:11

You were talking about, you know, when you started, you started dancing, Odissi? And then you went to college. And then you started dancing part time. I mean, after college, you actually took a year off and you went to India, and to study Odissi?

Unknown Speaker 9:29

I do. Okay. Do you

Malini Sarma 9:30

want to talk a little bit about that experience? Because what prompted that, and how, how did that work out?

Unknown Speaker 9:36

I think it was something I always had in the back of my mind, you know, because obviously, for me at that time, it wasn't just learning an art form. It was connected to yourself. And that's how the family I studied with was so closely tied for us. There were a branch of a school in Orissa called the Orissa Dance Academy and it was through the Chitralekha dance academy and it was through them that I connected with Orissa Dance Academy. And

Unknown Speaker 10:04

so when I went to college, I,

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while I was in college, I did a couple of summers.

Unknown Speaker 10:10

And it was a, it was an experience like no other learning in India should be, you're going as a as a full, full time.

Unknown Speaker 10:21

So we would go and just get the intensity of the practice and also learning in a group. So friends are seniors, and that whole culture of learning that is really the big difference. And also to learn obviously, in order to have words so much of the art form by the local culture, I think it's something very different when you when you're in it and when you're living in and when you're seeing it.

Unknown Speaker 10:50

And it was a wonderful time to learn Odissi as well because all the Guru's were still alive at that time out there.

Unknown Speaker 11:01

Guru Kelucharan Mohapatra, that's a good honor then

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he was still alive at that time, Pankajcahran Das, DN Patnaik

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us to be in these wonderful gurus and scholars were alive. So to be able to have experienced and learning at this stage

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was, you know, it's really opened your eyes as far as the depth of the form and the possibilities, and also the amount of work it took to bring the form to where it is. So,

Unknown Speaker 11:35

you know, and I think being an Odiya also,

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there was a different sense of responsibility to the autonomy

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of something that was cultivated, you know, with with the Patnaik's in Canada, but just in the sense of really preserving the integrity, having a lot of respect for the art in its roots. And so, you know, Think when you when you see it happening and when you see the blues and when you see the scholars and the performers. And also when you're exposed to the amount of work and passion that goes into it, you just want to be around it even once. So I knew that I it was something that I would I would have to spend more time with. And so after I graduated,

Unknown Speaker 12:22

I took a year off.

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I went to Odissa, I was staying with a family

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a wonderful, family the Mohapatra family in Bhubhaneshwar. They're the daughter of

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a dancer, Shiela Mahapatra

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some academic and just staying with an Oriya family and Sheila Apa was my was my big sister. It's just a completely you're living a very Odiya life.

Unknown Speaker 12:51

And it was wonderful because I wasn't the American Girl come into study. So I would go I would go to common programs. I would go to these, I remember just going on the bus or getting the rental car and traveling to some really remote area. And you know, doing doing a performance there. And it's really experience because it's not as glamorous.

Unknown Speaker 13:17

And I remember particularly that especially with, with some of the academy components,

Unknown Speaker 13:22

being exposed to other folk arts and other

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types of activities. So that whole sort of cradle of the culture and to experience it to perform it and to live it gave give that out, it gave my outfit, it was just something that really shaped my Outlook,

Unknown Speaker 13:42

a lot. Guru Gangadhar Pradhan and it was there

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with the founder director Of Odissa Dance Academy

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It was really important that

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we see Odissi as part of this, this cultural ecosystem. So you're very much a promoter of Have you know the Allied arts side and so I had a lot of exposure to different types of art be on Odissi in Orrisa

Unknown Speaker 14:10

which was really a

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very wonderful experience.

Malini Sarma 14:15

So you you had mentioned earlier when you started learning Odissi you didn't speak any Odiya you only knew that you because you were from the your parents were from there but that one year that you actually spent in Orissa must have really you know, you must it must have opened up though what all the cultures all about right because you were living with a family there, you're living the life there you were, you know moving around with them doing the things that the people over there do so you must have really must have been a real game changer for you, isn't it?

Unknown Speaker 14:46

It was a real it allowed me to really imbibe what I was doing and get into the dance

Unknown Speaker 14:55

from the inside out.

Unknown Speaker 14:59

You Make the culture that

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because my family that I stayed with I remember celebrating festivals, I remember,

Unknown Speaker 15:08

you know, certain religious functions of traditions and rituals that were followed and just just moving into understanding, and it was wonderful because, you know, I'm living with someone who she's a she's a cultural anthropologist. And so there's so much that she can, she can, being an academic, there's so much that she was able to break down for me and explain to me really very, very enriching. I started speaking, I was making a bit of Odiya before then, because I've traveled to Odissa several times before and so one of my gurus was didn't didn't speak English at the time. So you know, over time I learned I think I just learned and just kept practicing and, and interacting and, and that one year definitely helped a lot as far as doing associations. I want and once you have started, once you have the language down, it opens up so much as well.

Malini Sarma 16:07

Right? A lot of the songs that you perform to are also an Odiya right. So you are so by you knowing the language you're able to emote and understand the inner meaning and then bring that up on stage as well.

Unknown Speaker 16:19

Absolutely. Because when our gurus are are when they created this art form when they were putting it together, I think one of the things that they do so brilliantly was

Unknown Speaker 16:31

make Odissi an embodiment

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of the culture like filming if you watch Odissi really feel like you are witnessing,

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witnessing

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the essence of Odissi life and culture. And so when I when I watch my Masters perform when I watch my seniors perform, and how just the nuances of of characters you know, these small, small things that are very particular to to the local culture And how beautifully it's translated. Really.

Unknown Speaker 17:05

So a lot of it really informed my, my,

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my outlook on my practices.

Malini Sarma 17:16

So after you, you completed a year that you lived over there, you came back to US where you went to do a Master's. So you were working, what happened after you came back?

Unknown Speaker 17:28

I took a bit of time off and then I went, I went back to school. And I, well, okay, so the story was I was going to I was supposed to go to graduate school to study creative writing. And I didn't get that to happen. I got my rejection on important stuff. And I thought it was a sign that maybe this wasn't meant for me. So I never went back to writing, sadly, at least writing fiction. And I ended up doing a graduate degree in management, protocol to management and it wasn't Because I think that you'll notice they're really when you look at the

Unknown Speaker 18:06

culture and culture policy, and how policies can contribute to

Unknown Speaker 18:13

promoting and sustaining and preserving culture. And that was really fascinating for me. So I ended up doing my graduate degree. It was just very, very interesting to just take these tools and see how I can apply them in these circumstances. No. So it was very much my my decision in graduate school is very much informed by my experiences that I have to hear that.

Malini Sarma 18:40

Mm hmm. So after you took that degree in, you went to New York, and you were working and dancing at the same time.

Unknown Speaker 18:46

I was. I was

Unknown Speaker 18:49

not that workout.

Unknown Speaker 18:51

It. Well, it was it was different. You know, it was different because it was very difficult to find a space in the New York dance scene. One, it's like when you move to a new city, and you're just sort of finding your bearings. And so the the festivals that I would apply to was five minutes or you know, and nothing in the order to represent, at least at that time was was five minutes long that I can then. So it was very difficult to find opportunities, also placed into practice, New York was a very, it's a very expensive place to live. So for someone who was used to doing two hours of practice a day, difficult to find studio space, so great practical issues of balancing work, but then also trying to make that time and space to practice. And what was wonderful about New York at the time, however, was that I happen to come across a number of Indian classical artists very similar situation, they grew up in the US, and they were also training in the classical art trade in India. And we all sort of somehow came together. There and there was an organization in New York at the time called the art was run by Sridhar Shanmugam

Unknown Speaker 20:06

who used to dance with Chandralekha.

Unknown Speaker 20:07

So it turns out that Sridhar had a space in New York that he would present different dance and music, just very intimate by textile performances. And he was through art that we were able to produce our own shows, right, which is wonderful if you're looking for opportunities to perform. And if you want to perform a full repertoire, it's very difficult to find but one of the wonderful things that happened in art was that we were finally able to just produce and present our own work or present present the work that that we wanted to present. We didn't have to adapt so much to a particular aesthetic or a particular time frame or something. So it sort of gave us ownership of our art and some also being around such wonderful artists. It sort of gave me that push to try it and Because I think it was something that I it was a dream I'd always had, but I never dared to really pursue it. Because I knew that

Unknown Speaker 21:07

one also has to be practical

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and difficult to do. So, I decided at that point, I had a steady job. I was on a really good track. And I decided, you know, let me just let me just go for it. And the idea was that I would go to Odissa for further training. I don't think I had any real ambition, or I don't think I knew at the time how far I think that was it. It was just taking a year off to

Malini Sarma 21:41

pursue a dream. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 21:42

yeah, really, really. I guess it's really that i didn't i don't think at the time when I when I decided to go back to India that I have a big dream to be a good soloist or famous or anything like that. It was really more. Let me

Unknown Speaker 21:56

let me see how How much improvement can happen?

Unknown Speaker 22:04

At the time, my my gurus, Ramesh Chandra Jena and Bichitrananda Swain And they were actually going to be in the US at the time that I was planning to go to to India. So I managed to connect with Guru Shrimati Sujata Mohapatra , Daughter in law and disciple of eminent Guru Kelucharan Mohapatra. And I'd known about Sujata Apa for a while and I just said, Would it be possible for you to just train me these few months while I'm there? Absolutely. And it was the first session that just changed.

Unknown Speaker 22:48

She's full power. And you both have very different learning, learning in a gurus Family.

Unknown Speaker 22:57

Where Where you are with them

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24 seven. And it was really just so intense,

Unknown Speaker 23:06

it just changed my outlook.

Unknown Speaker 23:09

Also training with a woman, because I've used in the bulk of my training from male teachers.

Unknown Speaker 23:16

But to train to train and technique from a female teacher was very different. So, how to hold the body, how to understand what the body is doing, how much and so it was really just every single day. I remember going to class and just feeling so overwhelmed because there was so much that she would do she just has a computer, just constantly analyzing and correcting, correcting and also very tough. She really pushed me in a way that I just didn't think possible. I mean, it was one of the first experiences I had, but I just can't, I just couldn't get there. You know, the bar was so high and she pushed a lot, but it really changed my approach to As far as discipline not just announced but also in related areas to down. So down practice or getting organized

Unknown Speaker 24:13

approach to performance and I think there were a few of us with her

Unknown Speaker 24:18

at the time girl

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system.

Unknown Speaker 24:21

But we were working with her in such close proximity as from so we're with her during programs we would see how every single ornament or every single makeup brush is is in their place and after performance, everything has to be neat and organized. And then and so. And just the, the attitude to work your both husband and wife, Guru Ji son guru, Ratikant Mohapatra, also been fortunate to study with also had a very meticulous approach to work. And just and I think it was at the time in Srijan That you understand, it's really work. It's really hard work. That's all this is. It's your work. It's your focus in your discipline. And that really changed my approach to the level in which I was I was approaching death. I think I was always serious. And I'd had wonderful training. And I was fortunate to have a really amazing training. But I think it was just approaching it with a completely different sense of focus and purpose than I did before. The time that I was training with Sujata, she was very clear that she was training me to be a soloist. And it was interesting because that first year that I trained with her, she was already aware of the the hardship that I would face later on in my career. And so I remember one time, having you know, we're arguing and I think it was something along the lines of why you should pushing me so much One point I just, you know, we started arguing and then she said, you know, you, you really have I don't know, it's going to be tough for you. And so I have to push you. I can't have I have to push. And but the pushing allowed me to see what I was capable of doing. Because I think I needed someone to just keep raising that bar high. Mm hmm. And so so yeah, it was it was a very transformative experience.

Malini Sarma 26:31

So you had you completed you say, You stayed in Odissa for a year working with with Sujata Mohapatra. And then did you decide at the end of that year that you were going to come back to New York and, you know, see what you could do with your dance or we plan to go back to work. We were like, you know what, this I'm going to pursue this full time.

Unknown Speaker 26:54

Well, I didn't want to go back. I wanted to stay

Unknown Speaker 26:58

She, actually No, you have to go back. You have to go back and I said, but my dance will suffer and if I have to work and dance and she said, Well, trust me if you don't work, your dance will suffer more. And the first month that I was able to move back I remember I had enough i'd earned enough from from performing and teaching to pay my first month's rent. And I was so excited because I said okay, I can actually do this and if at the highest I thought I was doing the thing that I love and I was able to support myself but I could month one of my one of my workshops fell through and I was stuck without having money to pay rent. And I obviously didn't want to ask my parents for money. And I, it was a real blow. It was a really, it was a real reality check for me and just scramble trying to find out how I'm going to pay the next month's rent so stressful. And I remember applying for jobs at the time. I remember during my interview my my boss to be was just very impressed that I was a dancer and I have this whole other life. And I remember when I got the message that I was getting hired, instead of feeling happy, I just sat on the couch and cry because for me, I couldn't do it, I wasn't able to retrain, but then I think we, I had such an understanding Boss, I was able to do both seamlessly so I was able to earn to support myself and and do the work that I wanted to do, you know, I was able to get studio space and, you know, get the materials I needed for my dance, you know, as opposed to, you know, really sort of having to scrounge around and just barely make it. Just the constant stress of where my next month's rent was coming from. So it was it was tough. It required a lot of discipline because the working full time I was living in themes that I was working in and every Morning, I would get up at five. I couldn't afford studio space. So I would go to a yoga studio, I was renting a used yoga studio. And the only time I could practice was in the morning. So get up at five, walk 10 blocks, practice for two hours, take a train, go to work, come back, teach twice a week. If there were rehearsals for a show, I would, I would do rehearsals and come back and then performing the weekends. So it was a really grueling, grueling time. But it was something I had to do because I didn't have my doodle with me to say practice I didn't have someone it really required a lot of focus and a lot of self discipline. Because there's no one there to push you. There's no one there to have to practice you have to be very, very self reliant to do so. It was tough but but had to be done.

Malini Sarma 29:56

And so what happened so you did that for how long before You said you're not going to do this anymore.

Unknown Speaker 30:03

I didn't like I kept doing it. I continued to do it.

Unknown Speaker 30:07

There was no other way. That was really. And when I came back to New York, after having chatted with would suggest that that I was in a good position. I, you know, I was what a few odd dancers there who had the training that I had. And, you know, I was doing more performances in the US, so things were going pretty well. It was grueling, but, but it was, it was still it was going so it was moving. You know, I established myself as a dancer. I was doing performances outside of the state I was teaching so things were were in a nice rhythm. And so I didn't really decide that I would do that I wasn't going to do it anymore. I ended up meeting my husband and had sort of made the decision for me. So you know, after all of this was settled, I I've met my husband or my soon to be husband. And in he's, he's from from Odissa, living in Odisha. And when it came down to deciding, okay, where were we going to go with you? It just seemed easier because his company was in Orissa, it seemed the right thing to do for me to leave New York and live in Orissa. And I made that decision thinking Well, I've lived in Orissa before. I know this, I could manage it, but it's very different living in Orissa as a as a married woman versus living as a struggling dance student. So that was the reason why I left New York.

Unknown Speaker 31:40

Okay,

Malini Sarma 31:41

so that was a huge that was a there was a move in your mind. It was just like, yeah, I can handle I've been I've done that before, because I've lived in Orissa before? What was what was the rest of your family because your family was still here. Your parents are still here in the US right? Would there be Because your parents thought because they left India with probably 30 years ago. Right? What was their reaction when when you told them that? Well, guess what, I'm getting married. I'm gonna go back.

Unknown Speaker 32:09

Well, the funny thing is that I don't even think my my parents at the time realize what a big decision. It was. They did. But I don't think they're also very simple methods. And they already said that they know, was from 30 years ago. So my mom, my mom left Orissa, so when she was in her early 20s, so there was a lot that had happened in between. And so I, I don't really think yes, she was familiar, but at the same time, I don't think she she was as familiar with, with how things have changed over time. And she left it she gave me the space to make that decision. You know, and it was really one of those things. Are you sure this is what you want? Are you sure this is what you want and me thinking that life notice that is my damn place. So I just thought it was it would be a very simple let's transition actually. And it wasn't until after I moved in and after I you know, getting married and, and living there did I realize how how much of a change it actually was, you know, because it's very different visiting as you want. It's very different visiting and living in India and especially living in north south, which is fairly more conservative than, than other other parts of the country. So, so it was a it was a huge adjustment, I'm still adjusting to to life here. And it took a lot of time. It took a lot of time. But again, dance at that time was my anchor. When I got married, I remember it was just so overwhelming. It's a new identity. It's a new house. It's a new family. It's, it's married, it's marriage, and just feeling so overwhelmed. I just longed for something very familiar and A week after my wedding, I went back to class, because I just needed that familiarity. And I remember my Guru was taking class and she just hugged me for like 10 minutes. Because that's also a fear that happens that you know, there's there's so many girls who train but then after marriage, they give it up. And so there was sort of this, this fear in the back of your mind is like, well, she gets married, is she gonna stay with it? Or is she going to leave but for me, I needed that I needed that. I needed the feel of this, the dance class, just seeing those familiar faces a familiar routine.

Unknown Speaker 34:33

And that helped a lot to give that that, that

Unknown Speaker 34:39

it just gave me something familiar to hold on to as I was transitioning

Unknown Speaker 34:43

from one country, one identity to the other.

Malini Sarma 34:49

So dance was kind of your constant that was kind of your home. You know, while you transition. Everything else in your life is changing, but the dance was the constant right? So you never thought I mean, you didn't think that you were going to be there for a very long time you thought this is gonna be a temporary move. Is that what happened then you just you've been there for a while now, right?

Unknown Speaker 35:13

It was supposed to be two years and after two years without moving

Unknown Speaker 35:19

somewhere else, maybe someone else in Asia

Unknown Speaker 35:23

and two years became four which became eight and now we're going on 10. And it's not it was more me than then my husband, because I think my husband is very open to relocating. But I felt like I needed to be here. Partly because I think as an artist as an Odissi dancer, the the need to be here to absorb as much as you can

Unknown Speaker 35:58

to really be a repository of Odissi dance knowledge?

Unknown Speaker 36:03

And I think dance was the thing that sort of kept me that it has kept me here for a while.

Unknown Speaker 36:07

For for longer than I was expecting. And but we'll see, we'll see what happens there. How much longer will we stay is yet to be seen?

Malini Sarma 36:19

So how is how is, you know, living in India as a professional dancer, how is that different than being a professional dancer in the US? I know there's a lot, there's a lot we take for granted over here and there's a lot we take for granted over there. So how can you use kind of you talk about some of the nuances that you've noticed. Well,

Unknown Speaker 36:42

when I came, I was coming from a place where I was one of very few odd dancers in the area. And to go from that to all of a sudden being the mecca of Odissi Dance It's a huge transition. And it was difficult because I didn't grow up in Odissa. I had trained here and there for extended periods of time, but ultimately, I'm still born and raised in the US. So

Unknown Speaker 37:08

still very much an American Girl,

Unknown Speaker 37:10

and

Unknown Speaker 37:11

not having the same training, the the amount of training that that my peers have had. So the challenge to be a professional was the first challenge, I think was sort of to be able to get myself on the level of my peers. And it took a lot of hard work because again, I didn't grow up here I was I was working. And while I was practicing on my own, it's still the majority of my time was spent on work, not so much dance. And so the first few years that I was here was really more focused on on practice, and learning and just getting myself to to a part to a level that was India standard, you know, because the standard here is very high. And it's wonderful because I think

Unknown Speaker 37:55

when you see the level of the possibilities of how great the art is it really motivates you and pushes you. So there was that very, very practically speaking,

Unknown Speaker 38:07

difficult, much more competitive than than I ever would have imagined. And there's a lot of politics, there's a lot of nepotism, a lot of lobbying that happens, which is inevitable for a field that is so competitive. And you I think, when I, when I first moved to India, I was still very naive. It's really about your work, you put in your work. And you just all the fun of work hard, sincere honesty with a lot of integrity. And

Unknown Speaker 38:39

that that that is your your career path. That will be your career. And I realized that how naive that was, because it wasn't and, and networking is so much a part of I mean, I'm just saying, that's the I that my vision was a very ideal version. But the reality was something very different.

Unknown Speaker 38:58

Do you want how much of a difference networking,

Unknown Speaker 39:02

people skills, a lot of you know, and there are I'm not saying that it's like that for everyone, because I've seen some really wonderful, wonderful artists come up without doing any of that. But, you know, for artists that are sort of in the, in the process of

Unknown Speaker 39:17

coming up, there's so much of that in the field, you know, so the sad thing is that there are really wonderfully wonderfully talented and hardworking dancers who really never get an

Unknown Speaker 39:28

opportunity to be seen because they lack certain tools to invent that are not related to dance that that can help them with their career.

Malini Sarma 39:37

So they don't know the right people or the right connections or the

Unknown Speaker 39:43

language or Yeah, you know, so there's a lot of things that that, you know, it's not just about what is happening in the classroom, there's a whole other level of skill set a certain level of street smarts that are required to to get ahead You know, and yeah, that was the tough reality being here. Now to perform, I think the thing that I particularly found was a breath of fresh air was that I didn't have to translate so much of culture. So when I was when you're in America, you're not just you're not just a dancer, you're an educator. You're, you're, you're translating not just your art form, but you're translating the culture that it came from yours. So there's so much education required. And in India, being a performing here, there's so much that doesn't need explaining. You don't have to explain why you wear the Alta on your hands. Why do you wear this? Why do you wear that? Who is this? Why do we bow down? Why do we do that? So that so when that doesn't have to be done, it opens up a whole other level of

Unknown Speaker 40:52

new level of how you think about dance

Unknown Speaker 40:57

a different level of thinking towards your goals. So

Unknown Speaker 41:04

that time that I spent, you know, the the time that I've been here, I think it's really just trying to I think, when I, when I decided to really go and pursue this professionally, just to sort of get my, my head around how things work here is something

Unknown Speaker 41:21

I'm still trying to figure it out. And

Unknown Speaker 41:26

yeah, the reality is, it's an unfortunate reality of the situation that, you know, not it's not always that talent and hard work that that,

Unknown Speaker 41:36

that will get you professional results that, you

Malini Sarma 41:40

know, and I think there's a case in every, I think there's a case in every art form in every place, you know, it's absolutely the right place at the right time.

Unknown Speaker 41:51

And I think when approaching Indian classical art, we think, well, it's a, it's a spiritual form. It's a divine form. So the approach would be very different. But there's still a lot of a lot of what you're talking about that exists in, even in the classical world. So that was something that I hadn't really prepared for it. It was something that, you know, it was a it was a very difficult reality to face. But the flipside is, no, not everyone is like that. And they're wonderful artists who have managed to carve wonderful careers for themselves, without having to resort to politics or nepotism or lobbying to get ahead. And even with with everything said, I still believe that work is really the way it has been my way. And you know,

Unknown Speaker 42:37

that's sort of my, my own mantra for for, for myself.

Unknown Speaker 42:45

No, no compromises on the art. Yep. Yep.

Malini Sarma 42:49

So now you were talking about, you know, how people approach the dance and there's a lot of commercialization when it comes to dance. You know, people are a lot of people do it for the money. They teach you, you know, whatever. Whatever. They want to teach without having to read like you said, it's a very divine art form. And I think you and I are on the same page when it comes to it. So what is your approach about how do you look at dance? How do you look at how do you teach it? Because I know you said that you, you know, you would never want to teach it for money because you want to, you want to make sure that you imparting the knowledge to the right person, right. So how do you how do you look at it? And how do you teach dance?

Unknown Speaker 43:27

Well, before I say that, I would like to acknowledge that I'm also coming from a place of privilege so that I can have that I am able to make those decisions.

Unknown Speaker 43:37

And I'm not.

Unknown Speaker 43:40

When you live, you're used to the reality of the situation some people have to sell in order to earn their bread and butter. Some people don't have any skills beyond their deaths. So we have a student who's willing to pay them money that will take away the stress of paying the rent and and you know, putting food On the table, that is a reality that we have done, and I don't I don't judge them for it. But for me I won't alter the content or, or change how I teach, to attract students. I don't sell my art, I don't sell items. I very much believe in the bottom butter way of learning. And as a teacher, I don't consider myself a guru. I think that's a very, very big word with a very big connotation and a lot of responsibilities I, I have a lot of I have a ways to go before I call myself a guru. I call myself a teacher. And it's interesting because I for the last few years because I haven't really been in one place long enough. So a lot of my students are really just more transitory. I teach in workshops, and out of the workshops I teach, maybe I'll get one or two students who Who want to stick with it? And I think the ones that, that stay with me are the ones who have the patience to, to, to really learn and not look at it as as in terms of items or performances, but just for the art and those students are the ones that I do well with because it gives me the space to be the best that I the best teacher that I can be for them. And so, you know, I don't I don't alter the content. I don't, I don't change how I teach them. I teach the way I was taught and I had a very tough teacher and I, I don't in the classroom, I don't try to take away anyone's dignity. I don't try to belittle them in the classroom. I try to find what works for each student to get the best that I can from them. And I've also noticed that, you know, depending on what part of the world you're teaching, different people receive things differently to some of my students. Much more sensitive than others. And, and, and I don't mean to generalize, but I do find that, you know, in certain parts of the world, I have to approach my teaching a little bit differently. But I'm, when I go to the classroom, I think what I try to what I try to tell them or what I try to communicate is that I want to give them the best, and all of what I can give them, even if they may not pursue it professionally. At least whatever they are able to do, do it well, and do it in an informed manner and do it in a way that respects the integrity,

Unknown Speaker 46:38

the integrity of the art form. And

Malini Sarma 46:43

so you have and you have conducted workshops all over the world, right in Europe, and it's not just Indian students, you have Indian origin, you have Europeans, you know, people who don't speak audio or even understand that, that are your students, right?

Unknown Speaker 46:59

Right, I have students, mostly Europe in the US. And but these are all workshop, these are all students that see me maybe once a year, for four days, three, four days a year minus the ones who, you know who, whose day on and you know, work from all day. And know they they're not familiar with or they're not they don't have some of them have traveled to already set before so they have that familiar they have at least they have some exposure to it. Others have never been to Odissa and have never been to India. And so you know, that's also something that that you have to take into consideration when because it's the approach to Indian dance is something very different. Now when I taught in, in Berlin, and when I taught in Portugal when I taught in Spain, there was already an odyssey teacher before me but it was such a different mindset to write that, you know, it's you know, just down culture for example, and what is required of dance culture. It's not it's something new, just within the classroom, how different it is. I've attended classes in modern contemporary dance in New York and, you know, this, this approach to, you know, the sort of drop in class culture and you know, you know, a non hierarchical relationship to the teacher was something it was so strange to me. And when I go to Europe, it was sort of students coming in with that mentality of something I want to try out or just not having that familiar with the familiarity with the way things work in Indian classical dance. So we're always building on the previous day. You know, it's so it was a learning experience, more learning experience for me at the time because it really encouraged me to stick step out of myself and understand the mindset of the students that are coming in inside the classroom and all There's there's so much of a cultural context there's so much in terms of propriety, and values and expectations that happened in the classroom that you would have, I think I took it for granted. And you when I when I started teaching abroad, especially in a place where you don't have students of Indian origin it's just constantly thinking about all of these things when you when you teach and record something like for me, I never thought about going I never thought twice about going entering a classroom and touching my teachers feet, it was expected by Europe. I don't expect that from my students because I I don't think it's something that I should impose on them, I think if they want to, they can. But but at the same time, you know, that that also is a question in my head by not doing that. Am I taking something away from the the tradition and expectation of the form so those are things that are That I'm always thinking about inside. There's there's their conflicts that happen, you know? And also you have to explain it. I mean, know who you want blindly just touch your feet, because you asked them to everyone wants more, right? Why do I have to do this? What is this? Why am I doing this practice? Why am I touching the feet? It's very, very different. It's very important. So it was a different learning curve altogether when I went to Europe, huh?

Malini Sarma 50:28

No, that's actually quite interesting. When you have new students with different cultures, and you have to explain to them and, you know, because I know as a dancer myself, you know, the Indian expectations, like you don't ask questions, you just do. Whereas over in on the on the, in the Western world, it's more about you have to question everything. Otherwise, how will you understand so? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker 50:55

And you know, it's funny because I think in the years that I've been in India, my My tendency leans more towards the Indian style of teaching, which is sometimes you just need to be quiet and just listen. And just listen, listen and listen and, and absorb as much as you can, because sometimes I feel the answers reveal itself with time. But at the same time, you know, when you look at it from from the perspective of someone who doesn't have a familiarity with their culture or context, it's just information, you know, and it also made me really think and analyze things that I really took for granted for a very long time. And, and, and understand for myself the why's that I may not have questioned earlier on. So, so yeah, I think Europe was a was a very different learning learning curve altogether. But I have to say that I when I when I was studying an audience I because my there's a lot of foreign students that that trained in student I think what was really interesting was that there was no explanation you just sort of did it. You just sort of adapt You were in your practice already in the classroom at starting classes when, you know right on time and and you just sort of did it. And so that's so I think there's positives and negative negatives about over explaining because sometimes you just need to be there and just do it. Alright, so

Malini Sarma 52:18

now having lived there for almost 10 years knowing all that, you know now, what would you tell your younger self?

Unknown Speaker 52:29

really tough, that's good I I'm person who just doesn't believe in regrets. So, in one one way of looking at it is because it's it has been a real roller coaster ride and everything that can happen. The cultural clashes, the misunderstanding, the things that have happened. I feel like everything was happening as it was meant to be. And I felt like those things needed to happen to reach

Unknown Speaker 52:59

where I am Now.

Unknown Speaker 53:02

So there, that's one way of looking at it and this but if I were to change one thing, I think it would be to make more of an effort to understand the other person's point of view. Because I think, you know, there have been misunderstandings by people I was very close to the time that I've lived here. And I think what would have helped me then is to not see it from the point of view of me being hurt and how much hurt I was feeling and understand the context of the person who I was having a situation with. So yes, I think I just try to understand the other person's mentality and if you can context and I think when you can do that you can have more compassion and be less reactive about certain situations. So get that that's the one thing I would tell I would tell myself.

Unknown Speaker 53:55

Okay, that's another word that

Malini Sarma 53:59

I have one last Question. You knew, you knew from the beginning, you know, your your journey towards being a dancer would be tough, right? You said you'd come from, from a point of privilege and you had the opportunity to travel and do all that. You knew the road was going to be hard, but you still persisted. So what is it that kept you going?

Unknown Speaker 54:27

I think it's just that drive that hunger inside to keep going. I a few times in my career and a few times, simply living in Orissa. I have come very close to saying, All right, maybe it's time to stop. And, but that moment is always fleeting, because the next day I'm ready to go. At the end of the day. I have such a deep, deep love for this one. And that's the thing that keeps me going and I'm No, it's time to stop. Or if I ever do when that hunger stops when I stopped when I when I feel depleted. And I don't think that will happen for a long time because it's so enriching, it's such a high, you know, there's so much to learn and evolve and grow from and I think the most beautiful thing is to see how the personal growth reflect is reflected in in the artistic lens. So, as long as that there that's something to keep going. It's just you just have to keep going. And just nothing constant. Yeah.

Malini Sarma 55:46

No, I think I think that that's very well put, you know, you could either when you have when you have something that you love so much that you don't see an end to it at all. No, no, I feel the same way.

Unknown Speaker 56:02

That's the one thing I say is that I, I'm not ready to throw in the towel. And I

Unknown Speaker 56:09

I've really seen a lot I've seen a lot in the last the last few years. And is, I think if anything has changed, it has made me a lot less idealistic. The fact that I can still love this art form and be just as committed, if not more, after having seen everything that I've seen, you know, I, I think that's a lot, you know, about just the power of how great these these art forms are. There's so much, there's so, so much. And you realize in the process, it is so much bigger than our own little individual problems. It's really, really very vast and when you also take yourself out of the equation because now my approach to dance Is is now that a full I will be passing this on to future generations. So I'm I'm a medium so my little issues or whatever struggles I face are very insignificant in the larger picture. So if not for me then then for the art itself I have to stay with it hmm so yeah that's that's the thing that a lot of things that keep me going

Malini Sarma 57:29

that is awesome. Thank you so much i think that that is a that is very you know that just shows how much you love the art and how much the art is giving you right for you to stick with it. also sell Yeah. So thank you so much. I really appreciate your coming on the on the show and talking about your art. I know there are a lot of people who are who would one listen to your story you do right as well. Right You do have I think you have a blog.

Unknown Speaker 57:59

I do. To

Malini Sarma 58:01

know what's the name of the blog and then make sure I put it in the show notes as well so people can click on it and they can go read your articles.

Unknown Speaker 58:08

I have a couple now. There is globalrasika.com. And that was something we started in 2014. And it was a way to just cultivate critical thinking and discourse in the Odissi field and it's we so that we've been doing for a while little gaps here and there. There's a personal blog that I started which I have been very irregular about but which I hope to start writing on soon is called Odissi Nomad. And I use that hashtag a lot OdissiNomad.com And that's just my personal experiences.

Unknown Speaker 58:47

My own, okay.

Malini Sarma 58:50

Awesome. I'll make sure I put that in the show notes. And thank you very much for being on podcast and I really, really appreciate it

Unknown Speaker 58:58

and good

Malini Sarma 58:59

luck. Your next steps because I, I know you have lots of plans and I'm sure we'll see you soon.

Unknown Speaker 59:07

Thanks for having me. appreciate being here.

Unknown Speaker 59:11

Thank you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai